Former Chairman of the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission, Nuhu Ribadu, speaks with JOHN ALECHENU
about his recent return to the All Progressives Congress, the
anti-graft war, and how Peoples Democratic Party leaders approached him
recently to be the party’s national chairman
You recently
returned to the All Progressives Congress, a political party you
participated in founding. Why did you leave in the first place?
I joined politics during the 2010/ 2011
elections. By 2014, we were actively engaged; we almost succeeded in
setting up the All Progressives Congress. At that time, I decided to go
back home and start my politics at the local level in Adamawa State.
Like they say, ‘all politics is local’ and it makes sense for you to
concentrate at the local level for you to see how you will build your
political career. I paid more attention to that. In 2014, a lot of
people moved into the APC after it was formed. Some of us who formed the
party, opened the gates for others to come in. In Adamawa State, PDP
members moved into APC and I don’t need to mention names; they were well
known then. Even at the time of setting up the party executives at the
ward, local government and the state levels, those who were in the PDP
in Adamawa, especially members of the state House of Assembly, played
significant roles. They were the ones that, more or less, brought
(together) all the officials at the ward, local government and state
levels. The same set of people turned against the then APC government
headed by Governor (Murtala) Nyako who also moved (from PDP to APC). His
movement was genuine unlike so many others. They all turned against
Nyako. Those who set up the party structure, especially members of the
state Assembly and some godfathers, ganged up and removed Nyako. Those
of us who were the original members of the APC did not like it and we
fought in the best way we could without success. We knew that we were
heading for trouble; we knew it was the beginning of crisis for the
party in the state. Later, the same people who took over the APC from us
divided themselves into two dominant political parties in the state.
One group took over the PDP, while another took over the APC. It was
funny and sad. At that time, I felt a lot more comfortable running away
from those who were in charge because of what they did. It caused a lot
of confusion for me as an individual I must admit.
Were there conditions attached to your defection to the Peoples Democratic Party as of the time you did? If so, what were they?
No. If there were to be conditions. I
should be the one giving the conditions instead, because I was invited
to join the party. As of that time, those who invited me meant well for
the state and also meant well for the country. They felt I could help in
doing things correctly. As of that time, the decisions I made were in
the best interest of my state, my family and my country. There was no
other way, especially when a governor was just removed and there was so
much confusion. It is not like everybody in PDP is bad just as it is not
everybody in the APC that is good. Everywhere you have a combination of
good and bad people. If that is the case, sometimes you look at those
you can do business with. Nobody gave me conditions.
Are there conditions attached to your return to the APC?
One of the reasons I returned was that
things have changed fundamentally. Those things that happened in Adamawa
have been reversed. We are going through a healing process and the
original people who are the progressives are coming back together and
some important steps have been taken. For example, the recent court
ruling which declared the removal of Nyako as wrong and illegal, is a
good thing for me personally and for all of us who stood against his
impeachment then.
The party today has good leadership.
There is a change in the way things are being done in our country. We
have a Federal Government that is focused and fighting lawlessness.
Those are some of the things that have built up now and brought about a
conducive environment for us to come back. Nobody gave us conditions
neither did we give anyone conditions. After all, this is a party that I
was a part of as a foundation member. I played a big role in the
formative stage. It will not be difficult for me to reconnect.
You paid a visit to Chief Bisi Akande months before your return to the APC. What was it about?
In respect of people like Baba
Akande and the rest, we were never too far away from one another. He is
like a father, it is not just him alone; many of them that have always
been with me, we have never parted ways. They were aware of what
happened then, that’s why nobody said anything. Many of them understood
and wished me well. I was always close to all our political fathers who
are more or less the fathers of progressive politics in Nigeria. Even
when I was a little angry about what happened in Adamawa, I was never
far away from them. We were together. It’s just sad that at the time I
left, I could have been a little patient and quiet and allow things to
calm down but I was vulnerable and a lot of my friends in the PDP,
convinced me to come over after all, it’s about serving Nigeria. I was
not far away from my people particularly Asiwaju (Ahmed Tinubu), Baba
Akande and a lot of those who came together to form the party.
Is your movement from the ACN/APC to PDP and now back to APC not a sign of desperation for power?
No. Whatever my level of desperation, I
couldn’t have been given the nomination of the ACN then, I had nothing, I
didn’t have money. I don’t even have money now. If it is a matter of
money, there is no way I can get anything in Nigeria. The same thing
happened when I moved to Adamawa. Both sides were looking at me and
said, ‘Please, why don’t you work for Adamawa State first, before
anything else? You are not that old. Adamawa is not a bad place for you
to start; come and participate.’ I am a human being; I listened and
because of this, people were continuously asking for things. Up till
now, nothing has changed (about me); it’s about people. I became the
governorship candidate of the PDP in Adamawa not because I spent any
money but because people agreed that I could do it. They said if APC is
in confusion, come over. Not long ago, the PDP wanted me to be their
national chairman. I have never been desperate in my life; desperation
is far away from my character.
Some have accused you of betrayal… (Cuts in)
How?
That you betrayed your
anti-corruption posture by joining a platform with people you prosecuted
as chairman of the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission.
Which party can I belong to that they
(people I prosecuted) are not there? Does it mean that I should not play
politics because of others? It’s a straightforward thing. I am a
Nigerian and I honestly want to contribute. I want to play my own role
in the nation’s development and how to bring about peace and unity in my
country. Unless you belong to a political party, it will be difficult
for you to participate. You must take your own steps towards an
opportunity for you to help your own country and a political party is
open for all. It is a constitutional right. People are free to join
political parties that they like and one cannot say because of someone
who is there he will not join the party. I think that will not be fair
to oneself, Nigeria and to everybody. In all the parties, we have good
and bad people. I think I have no issue belonging to a political party
with people, who somehow had been affected by my work while in the
EFCC. I did my work honestly to the best of my ability, with no personal
interest and vendetta; that’s why most of them are comfortable with me.
The war on corruption has been fought since the 1960s but it seems corruption is getting worse. What is your take?
It is not that we have done badly but
Nigerians continue to ask for more. We are impatient people – which is a
good thing. We make a lot of noise when we disagree with some things.
If you ask me today, there is no country in the world that is fighting
corruption like Nigeria. Why? I can tell you from the results of the
work done. There is no anti-corruption institution or agency in the
world that is handling cases like the EFCC. There is no anti-corruption
agency or institution in the world that is doing the recovery that the
EFCC is doing today. There is no anti-corruption agency in the world
today that is taking cases to court – which is what anti-corruption
agencies are supposed to do. I think these are the statistics we must
accept and recognise the fact that we are not doing badly. The volume is
large; corruption is all over the world; all countries have it. You
will be shocked if you know what is happening in other African
countries. The difference is that we are doing something about it. There
were periods we were a little bit low but later came up. Right from
the time President Obasanjo started the war against corruption, I think
we started doing very well. We laid a solid foundation and then the EFCC
is a good example of an agency that has a good foundation and which
will continue to do its work. We have our own low points but we also
have results to show for the work.Ibrahim Magu (current EFCC boss) is
doing a good job. We have many institutions with modern tools of
fighting corruption in Nigeria that are far more than many countries of
the world. We have institutions like: NEITI (Nigerian Extractive
Industries Transparency Initiative) promoting transparency and
accountability in the extractive industry; it is solid and we have good
hands managing it. We have the Bureau of Public Enterprises. We also
have the Bureau of Public Procurement. We have the SFU (Nigeria Police
Special Fraud Unit) and the NDIC (Nigeria Deposit Insurance
Corporation). But we can do better; we need to have a national strategy
to address the problem of corruption. We need to have a consensus
(anti-graft system) that the executive, the legislature and the
judiciary will buy into and understand what is needed to be done.
Do you subscribe to calls for a special court to handle corruption related issues?
I have always been against doing ad hoc
initiatives to address a big problem. Based on my own experience, I
discovered that they do not work. I participated in the (Military)
tribunals – Miscellaneous Offences Tribunals, Recovery of Public
Property Tribunal; all these were special courts and all our works came
to nothing because ultimately, they could not fit into the regular court
system that we operate in Nigeria. So, and all the cases were thrown
out and almost all the recoveries that were done went to waste. If every
time you are confronted with a problem you create a court, you are
going to have many that you will not be able to manage. We had
anti-robbery tribunals; why are our courts not working? Why? They are
the same human beings, the same Nigerians, why can’t we make them work?
If we want our courts to work, they will work. There is no reason to
create another one and abandon what is already in existence. Today, you
say, Rent Tribunal, tomorrow you say Industrial Court, and day after
tomorrow another one; when are we going to end that? This doesn’t happen
in other places where courts are working. Why don’t we concentrate and
make our existing courts work? During my days as the chairman of the
EFCC, the courts worked. I had more than 90 per cent of success in all
the cases I took to the court because in the first instance, we worked
hard at the EFCC. By the time we build a case and it went to court, it
was a solid case that would stand the test of prosecution. We were also
honest and everybody knew that we did not take money and if I didn’t
take money and if the case went to court, chances were that no one would
take money. We were getting results; I never lost a single case on
appeal or at the Supreme Court; not a single case because we worked
hard. The courts are there, corruption comes in when there is a lousy
work. If they see there is that political, will they will act
accordingly; if they see honesty and transparency everybody will come
along. But if you don’t do it, even if you create a special court you
are going to face the same problem. I think it makes sense for us to
invest in our regular courts, courts that can take all cases. For
instance, we can say this particular judge can handle these kinds of
cases. There is nothing wrong with, for example, say, within the Lagos
Division, the Chief Judge knows judges who are good at specific areas
and then assign such cases to them. We need to improve on the courts;
improve on the quality of our judges through training and re-training,
improve accountability and transparency and fight corruption. Let the
judiciary cleanse itself by itself, let the Chief Justice lead the
reform.
How would you react to those who accuse you of pandering to the whims of former President Olusegun Obasanjo?
You cannot stop people from complaining
especially if they were victims of your work but who are those people?
Where are they? I need to know them. For over a decade, I have been
making the same noise. Let people come and tell me that while I was
working, I did this or that to pander to the then President Olusegun
Obasanjo and I will reply. As of the time we did the work, even though
it was a PDP government, 90 per cent of those we charged to court were
PDP members. I don’t think they were all enemies of the president. Most
of the works we did were transparent and were open for all to see. We
had evidences which we took to court. How, for God’s sake, can anyone
say all the works we did were because of this and that? We did not hide
anything from the public. People who tried but failed to corrupt or
blackmail someone, would always say something; it is left for Nigerians
to look at it. There is nowhere in the world that you will fight
corruption that people will not complain. They will always look for a
reason to say something. In our own case, it was exceptional because
most of them were PDP members and they were close to the president.
What about the alleged distribution of the N50m to legislators to alter the Constitution to give Obasanjo a third term?
In the first instance, third term did
not work. There was no law that was passed. In dealing with corruption
cases, the first thing to look at is what is the motivation? Was the act
carried out? Was it successful? From there you build your case. The
third term did not work for us to say this or that person was bribed and
that’s why they passed the law or allowed third term. When you talk of
third term’s money, first and foremost, as a law enforcement agency you
have to first look at what is going on: did something happen that
warrants you to say a crime has been committed? If something happened
behind the scenes under the cover of darkness, how on earth can you
build a case on that? How many things are happening right now that you
don’t know about? We took steps; we stopped money in our banks when we
became suspicious. Some of the former governors that we charged to
court, for example, the governor of Jigawa (Saminu Turaki), had
something to do with that. There were a couple of other cases that I was
building before I was removed from the EFCC. The money was put in
preparation for it (third term) but we stopped it. We went after the
bankers and blocked accounts even before anything happened. I hope that
those who said they were given money will come out and give details so
that people will be prosecuted for it. This will help law enforcement
agents to do their work; criminal cases don’t have time limits.
What were your experiences when you handled the NNPC probe under the Jonathan administration?
At that time, I was not even in the PDP
and they felt I could do a good job. We did a lot of things. We looked
at the NNPC (Nigerian National Petroleum Corporation) accounts, in and
out; we went to the ports and presented a quality report that if that
government had accepted and implemented it, we would have avoided many
of the things that happened subsequently. When we went, we made a
presentation to former President Goodluck Jonathan. We told him publicly
that it was his government and that he should not allow others to mess
him up. Those who challenged us tried to compromise the whole thing; we
resisted. It was public knowledge, but after that, it never saw the
light of the day.
What was the lowest point of your career?
(Prolonged silence)… When I was forced
out (of the EFCC). In fact, the saddest part of it was that it was the
day that I was to graduate from the National Institute for Policy and
Strategic Studies, Kuru and (Micheal) Andooakaa led a bunch of people to
come and remove me from the graduation hall, it was terrible.
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